Fiery Confrontation On Studio 10 Over 'Not All Men' Comments
Former politician Phil Cleary has gone toe-to-toe with Joe Hildebrand, as the pair failed to agree on how to address violent acts by men against women.
The anti-violence campaigner appeared on Studio 10 on Tuesday morning in the wake of Courtney Herron's death.
Herron was found brutally bashed to death in an inner Melbourne park on Saturday morning. The 25-year-old homeless woman was allegedly killed by Henry Hammond.
She is the fourth woman in less than 12 months to be found dead in a public place in Melbourne.
Cleary -- who lost his sister in a 1987 domestic violence attack -- is calling on the prime minister to take action on the issue and remind Australians "at least 60 women a year are killed...overwhelming by the man in their life, overwhelming in the context of separation".
Following Herron's death, Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner Luke Cornelius said all men need to reflect on the killings, sparking widespread debate about the nature of violence against women.
On Monday, Hildebrand had a strong "not all men" attitude towards the issue, a framing often thought of as unhelpful by campaigners in this space.
Cleary took Hildebrand to task on the comments, telling him it was the responsibility of all men to engage in the conversation with hopes it will "reverberate through the community".
"Your public narrative counts Joe, your public narrative counts," he said.
"If you go on TV and make observations, expect them to be critiqued. So I would critique your observation when you say yesterday "oh no this is not about me, this is not about all men.
"It mightn't be about all men but what we know is its men who are doing the killing. So what's our part in trying to explain to men everywhere how we've got to revisit our relationship with women and the position of women in our society?"
Hildebrand took offence to the remarks.
"Sorry, Phil I'm just a bit surprised by that," he said.
"Yes it's certainly overwhelmingly men who commit these crimes but you're extrapolating from a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of men who are doing it and applying that to a whole gender. It's the same sort of argument as 'well, all these terrorists are Muslims and therefore all Muslims are terrorists. That's not logical."
The conversation quickly became heated, with Cleary stating he was not simply "the brother of a murdered woman" but also an academic on the subject.
"You're saying it's only a tiny minority. Who are the people who are doing the killing? Let's really ask, are they the bloke next door?" he said.
"And don't just think it's the killers Joe also. Move from the killers to the men who bash to the rapists. It's thousands of men across the society, thousands of men and there are men who have dark hearts about the position of women."
Hildebrand said he didn't understand where Cleary's comments were coming from, insisting there was no darkness in his heart or in those of his close male friends.
"I'm surprised this conversation has taken the turn it has and I don't like the implication of it," Hildebrand said.
The host went on to point out that between 2012 and 2014, which meant even if all perpetrators were male, it would represent only 0.0042 percent of the Australian male population at the time.
Cleary interrupted to ask how many more men have "terrified and been abusive and violent towards women".
"You're picking homicide. Who is the most dangerous person for a man in the world?" he asked Hildebrand.
The host said the answer was also other men, but that it is "still a tiny minority".
"I don't think you understand it is a tiny tiny tiny minority of men who are both the victims of homicides and the perpetrators of homicides," Hildebrand said.
"And to say that this is male problem and if we address all men we'll get to this a ridiculously broad way to address a very specific problem."
The pair were cut off by co-host Natarsha Belling who stepped in to wrap things up.